Moral of the story: Don't piss off the metalheads.

Mr. Lonesome:

I notice that we three often lament on how bands we love seem to lose it during the later years: Zeppelin, Metallica, the Stones, etc. So let us go back to the beginning, back to the brilliance, back to the times that made us literally shake in awe. What are the best album debuts.

Just to start it off, and in no particular order:

Metallica – Kill ‘Em All

The Doors – The Doors

Big Star – Number 1 Record

Black Sabbath – Black Sabbath

G N’ R – Appetite for Destruction

Van Halen – Van Halen

Mr. On’ry:

You know what’s funny.  I listened to Kill ‘Em All this weekend for the first time in forever and I thought to myself how does Lonesome like this record.  Because I have to tell you that I’m pretty convinced, knowing your other music tastes, that if Metallica had just broken up when Cliff Burton died a) you might not have ever discovered them and b) if you did you would have hated this album.  It’s fast and gritty and the vocals are all screechy and gruff…you know all the things you dislike about the rest of the metal world. 

There are too many albums to list.  I could do this all day. 

Mr. Lonesome:

I was listening to it this morning on my commute. The riffs are just awesome. I used to not dig the vocals, but I got over it. I can appreciate the energy in them. Plus, the bass sound is fantastic. The runs he does on Four Horsemen during the mellow section right before the solo, beautiful. I don’t know how Cliff could have been happy going from that sound to Ride The Lightening.

Yes – too many to list. I had to temper that list below. Why don’t you talk a little about one of your favorite bands, Onry – The Doors. How good is that debut?

Mr. On’ry:

Ride The Lightening is the weak link from Kill ‘Em All to Master of Puppets.  Both of those albums are far superior.  What is there to say about The Doors that hasn’t already been said.  When Jim Morrison was alive they didn’t make a single bad record. 

Wait.  The Doors.  Do we have a band that all three of us agree on?!?  The Mayans were right!  The world is coming to an end!

Mr. Mean:

And the fight starts because…

I like Kill ‘em All, but Ride The Lightning is so much better. Not a strong debut by my standards.

So many to mention, so here’s some near and dear to me.

Joy Division – Unknown Pleasures

R.E.M. – Murmur

Van Halen – Van Halen

The Stooges – The Stooges

Television – Marquee Moon

Buzzcocks – Another Music In A Different Kitchen

Bauhaus – In The Flat Field

The Doors – The Doors

JAMC – Psychocandy

Pet Shop Boys – Please

Killing Joke – Killing Joke

The Smiths – The Smiths

Black Sabbath – Black Sabbath

Iron Maiden – Iron Maiden

Dead Kennedys – Fresh Fruit For Rotting Vegetables

The Charlatans – Some Friendly

Oasis – Definitely Maybe

808 State – Ninety

Happy Mondays – Squirrel & G Man

Megadeth – Killing Is My Business

Mr. Lonesome:

I love Ride the Lightening. A lot. More than Kill Em’ All, in fact. But that’s because it’s a moodier record, which fits my musical sensibilities.

But how can you say Kill Em’ All is not a strong debut by your standards? It was a revolutionary  record that helped introduce a sound (NWOBHM) to America to the myriad kids that never heard (or heard of) those bands from across the pond. What did the debuts for Pet Shop Boys or Happy Mondays or The Smiths ever do.

Mr. Mean:

I said my standards dumdum. Those other albums are one I hold to high regard. Whether you like the bands or not, I don’t give a crap.

And how the hell do you say that album brought NWOBHM to America? Iron Maiden, Def Leppard, Saxon, and others all had albums that came out before Kill ‘em All by like 3 years or so. And it’s not a record I would associate with that movement anyway. It’s thrash, pure and simple. It took some elements of the British scene for sure, but in no way did that album introduce that sound to America. You’re totally daffy. Is that a better word, schmuck?

At least we agree on Ride The Lightning. I just wish you and the other bonehead would spell lightning correctly.

Mr. On’ry:

Mr. Lonesome you are wrong because 1) Metallica were never, ever NWOBHM.  They were thrash from day one.  2) Kids in America already knew plenty about NWOBHM by the time of its release.  Judas Priest and Iron Maiden had multiple records out already and there were records from bands like Saxon, Angel Witch, Diamond Head, etc. (hell there were American bands who were ripping the NWOBHM sound that put out records before them – Cirith Ungol for one)  3) It wasn’t “revolutionary” because there were also bands like them who were also putting out gritty awesome thrash records at the same time.  It stood out because it was effing amazing.  Period.  Let’s not get all 20-20 hindsight here and start heaping praise on this band that they don’t deserve.    

Mr. Mean, we shall agree to disagree because Kill ‘Em All is my favorite Metallica record and that’s that.   

Mr. Lonesome:

Oh, my bad. I forgot that most of America was already familiar with Saxon, Angel Witch, Cirith Ungol. What was I thinking. I’m sure everyone went to the Cirith Ungol show when they came to town.

And I am not wrong on the NWOBHM influence in Metallica’s sound. Just because they were thrash from day one doesn’t mean those bands weren’t in their riffs and lyrics.

Mr. Mean:

You’re not wrong about the influence in their sound, though it is more thrash like On’ry said.

What you are wrong about is that, yes, a lot of American metalheads knew those bands before 1983 when the Metallica album came out. Just because you know eff all about a Cirith Ungol record does not mean the bulk of the headbangers didn’t either. Further, Cirith Ungol were from California, not England.

Why does this crap always come back to Metallica? We should have named the blog Metallica.

Mr. Lonesome:

I don’t disagree that it was more thrash, but that wasn’t where I was going with it. People wanted to know more about Metallica, and they would talk about the bands they loved and were influenced by, and that helped a lot of bands that most people never heard of. Just because you two are Rainman with the genre doesn’t mean the American masses are or were, especially ones that got into the genre because of Metallica, or Megadeth, etc.

Mr. Mean:

Are you honestly telling me that no one in America had ever heard of Saxon, Maiden, Def Leppard, Judas Priest, Raven, or Venom before Kill ‘em All? That’s crap dude. Hell, Pyromania had already sold around 2 million copies by the time Kill ‘em All was even in anyone’s tape decks. The Number of the Beast was probably gold by the start of 1983. It’s a foolish statement. So, Metallica were the reason people knew NWOBHM in the States? No way dude. Granted, they did a lot for that scene by releasing Garage Days Re-revisisted….in effing 1987.

Mr. Lonesome:

I’m absolutely not saying that. But I’m leaning more toward the notion that less people knew about the NWOBHM movement than you guys think did. And Pyromania is a dumb example. It was Thriller with guitars. How’d High ‘n’ Dry sell in America? On Through the Night?

I concede on Maiden and Priest. They’re metal juggernauts. I’m referring more to the Movement in general. There are so many bands that I guarantee you weren’t well known at all by the majority of American rock fans at that time:

Saxon, Angel Witch, Withfynde, Witchfinder General, Blitzkrieg, Raven, Tank. You cant honestly tell me these bands were in every American rocker’s tape deck in 1983.

Mr. Mean:

OK so Pyromania  was not the best example. The others peaked on the Billboard charts at 38 and 51, respectively as your wrote them below, which is out of order. So, yeah, those albums were in tape decks. They sold plenty. More than effing Kill ‘em All.

Who is Withfynde?

Mr. Lonesome:

HAHA yeah, I totally saw that High ‘n’ Dry sold better than I thought! And yes, I know it wasn’t their debut. I am a non-linear person. I named it first because it’s more well known. But I don’t think Def Leppard is a good example for either of our points.

Withfynde is the original name of the band Witchfynde. The guy who started the band was Gerald Find. At their first gig, the blokes at the pub said “you aren’t allowed in here” not realizing they were part of the band. So the simply said “it’s cool, we’re with Find.”

And bam. The name stuck. They changed Find to Fynde and gigged for a few months before they realize Witch was more sinister than With.

Witchfynde.

Bet you didn’t know that story didja?

Mr. Mean:

You are such a moron. Where the hell is the other guy? I want him to pummel you through his email.

Mr. Lonesome:

I’ll make this concise and simple. I’m saying that I think you two overestimate the amount of Americans that were familiar with the NWOBHM movement as a whole. Sure, they might have bought Pyromania, but it doesn’t mean they then went out and got all the Saxon records they could find.

Use me for an example. I’m the guy that went out and bought the original versions of every song on Garage Days. And I also bought NWOBHM '79 Revisited that Lars helped compile.

If I’m the one that’s the fan anomaly, then so be it. But I think I’m probably more the norm.

Mr. On’ry:

So where do I begin.  It’s funny that nowadays the general populace has this notion that metal didn’t exist before Metallica was sent down from the heavens by Apollo himself to rescue us all from guys in skinny ties.  Idiot.  Do you realize that most metalheads are savants when it comes to the genre.  It’s why we are so passionate about it.  Iron Maiden and Judas Priest had already gone gold in the states by the time Metallica went into the studio.  Bands like Mercyful Fate, Saxon, Venom, Celtic Frost, Raven, etc., etc. were well known by anyone worth their salt in the states.  What, you think metal was just this primordial pool of bands that existed only in the darkest depths of Europe?!?  Dolt.  (And I brought up Cirith Ungol to prove to you that NWOBHM was already so planted in the States that there were already US bands playing a similar style.  Their first album Frost and Fire came out in 1980.  1980!!!)

Lets also not forget something that you Metallica apologists seem to gloss over.  Metallica wasn’t huge the second their first album was released.  It sold o.k., R.T.L. sold o.k., they sold out club shows and had a rabid following.  But do you know when they first toured arenas?  When they opened for Ozzy in 1986 right after Master of Puppets was released.  Oh yeah and we haven’t mentioned that Black Sabbath, Dio and solo Ozzy were also huge long before Metallica recorded a single song. 

You are the anomaly.  You admitted yourself that you didn’t love Metallica until the Black album.  Your lack of metal knowledge prior to that is apparent and frankly you are embarrassing yourself here.  Just because Metallica has eventually outsold all of the bands that came before them doesn’t mean no one knew who these bands were, especially “metalheads” and “rockers” as you put it.     

Mr. Mean:

Dude, we love you, honestly. But On’ry has a point…most of the people who discovered metal via Metallica or  close to it assume that is where it all began and/or no one had a clue before them. Like they were this huge machine or something. Chip is right about MoP. That was the album that put them on the map because they had huge backing from Elektra. Plus, predominately hair metal mags like Circus and Hit Parader picked up on thrash and started writing about these bands. I knew of bands like King Kobra and Helix before I knew about Metallica.

Mr. Lonesome:

I don’t usually argue semantics, but I said The Black Album is what got me into wanting to play music. Even though I really got into metal in high school, I was already listening to Puppets and Justice, as well as Maiden, Priest, Sabbath, Ozzy solo, Dio, etc. by way of my older brother. I wasn’t an expert on those bands, but I was familiar and enjoyed them (Dio specifically). If you were listening to Saxon, Venom, Celtic Frost and the like before you hit your teens, awesome. I don’t know many who were (except maybe Nathan Sanchez, who wore a Randy Rhoads tribute shirt five days a week).

What I should have said was “my generation” of rockers or metal heads. Metallica was the Gateway to all those obscure European bands in the dark corners, as well as the ones already in Britain. MTV helped scratch the surface, playing Dio and Priest videos in the early 80s, Ozzy in the early to mid. But it wasn’t until I learned what bands my favorite bands liked that I better understood where the roots were.

And Metallica Apologists are well aware that Metallica didn’t sell well early on, that their rabid fan base came from touring and word of mouth. I guess my point is that as a genre, NWOBHM had so many good unknown bands. Just because a couple broker through, it doesn’t mean people were aware of the rest. I appreciate that Metallica covered the bands they did on Garage Days. Who did Megadeth cover, the Sex Pistols?

So when I said Kill ‘Em All was a revolutionary record, I stand by it. And it absolutely has to do with the 20-20 hindsight. As far as a thrash album, it’s one of the most influential ever. But one of the reasons is because of the technicality of NWOBHM influence.

(editor’s note: At this point the conversation somehow digressed into discussing various space rock bands.  That’s a post for another time…)

Mr. On’ry:

Yeah I have to go back to that last Metallica post because I never retorted.  You stated: “I guess my point is that as a genre, NWOBHM had so many good unknown bands. Just because a couple broker through, it doesn’t mean people were aware of the rest.”

In this conversation they were only unknown to you ding-dong and although they may have been unknown to people listening to nothing but Culture Club they weren’t unknown by the fans in the scene. Just because you didn’t know who Diamond Head or Budgie was until 1987 doesn’t mean the rest of the world was clueless.  And that’s my point. 

Mr. Lonesome:

I get your point, I do. And I admit that I didn’t word mine properly, which is that not as many people knew about bands such as Diamond Head or Budgie in America at that time as you seem to think (specifically, our generation of rockers that were in 7^th grade in 1987 – they were discovered later on).  

If I’m mistaken, then I humbly accept that.

Besides, me and Mr Mean were listening to Exposure by Exposé in 1987.

Mr. On’ry:

You just made a blanket statement about metal and I had to put you back in your place.  That’s all.  XOXO

Mr. Lonesome:

I will suffocate you in that blanket.

So, we are the same age. Were you honestly listening to NWOBHM acts other than Maiden and Priest when you were in elementary school? Were your friends?

Mr. On’ry:

I wasn’t really heavy into metal until I was about 11/12 years old.  But in the years prior all the neighborhood kids I hung out with had older brothers and in NJ two in particular were big time metalheads.  I’d go over their houses and they would constantly be blasting Maiden, Priest, Ozzy, Dio, Sabbath, Saxon, and a truckload of other stuff.  So yeah, I knew who most of these bands were although I didn’t personally own anything heavier than AC/DC at the time.  But I was lucky that I had those dirt bags to influence me and keep me away from crap like Expose.  Ha!

Mr. Lonesome:

Exposé was awesome, dude!

Same here. My brother was the quintessential 80s Stoner. Priest was his favorite: Glen Tipton to be exact. I never got into Priest beyond the video for “You Got Another Thing Coming.” Nothing like a dude’s head exploding to win the heart of a child.

At this age, in retrospect, I prefer Maiden to Priest 101 days out of 100.

And I’ll end on this: if it’s one thing reaffirmed today it’s that I heart Metallica. Been listening to them for the last 8 hours. Loved every tiny second.