Sharing is Caring (and apparently so is arguing)

Mr. Lonesome:

With the weekend upon us, I thought it might be fun to do something a little different, and say what we’ve been really digging of late. What have you gents been listening to?

Mr. On’ry:

I've been revisiting the first five Jefferson Airplane albums. One of the best American rock bands ever. 

Also been listening to a lot of great recent metal offerings - Ghost, In Solitude, etc.

Mr. Lonesome:

Wow, the first five? And here I thought they went straight from “Surrealistic Pillow” to the Mannequin soundtrack.

You need to recommend a Metal band to me in the vein of Opeth. I’m very interested in getting into some more of Sweden’s finest. I just need it to have some clean vocals.

As for me, been on a HUGE Greg Dulli kick. Most specifically, I’m obsessed with “Saturnalia” from the Gutter Twins. I listen to it pretty much every day. But I’ve been getting back into Afghan Whigs and The Twilight Singers, too. Oh, and his solo album. And solo Mark Lanegan.

Also, “Show Me” by the Cover Girls. Pure nostalgia 80s pop for me. Don’t judge.

Mr. On’ry:

Dude Volunteers (their fifth and final with the classic late 60's line-up) may be my favorite.  Each album got better and better if you ask me. 

I highly recommend Ghost if you are looking for a good clean-vocal metal band.  They are actually touring with Opeth here in the U.S. in April. 

Mr. Lonesome:

I totally love the song “Miracles” – which is that on? Great melody to it.

Opeth was in Baltimore on my birthday, and I somehow wasn’t able to go. Can you believe that? I’ll look into Ghost. I appreciate the recommendation. Mr Mean would probably tell me to just go listen to The Smiths without any treble.

Mr. On’ry:

Dude I'm pretty sure that was a Jefferson Starship song...we don't speak of the Airplane after they stopped being the Airplane. You dig?

Well then you are a dumb@$$ for missing them.  He'll tell you to go listen to some obscure 80's thrash band (which I approve of mind you) because I'm pretty sure for him metal stopped in like the mid-90's.

Oh and while I'm thinking about it - you should totally check out Baroness if you haven't already.  Their first two albums are brilliant.  I mention them though because they opened for Metallica on part of their last world tour and I just read yesterday that they have the same management now...which means the next record is probably going to be a total turd, but right up your alley!  Ha! 

Mr. Mean:

You missed Opeth on your birthday in the town where you live? No excuses for that one. Besides the fact that you are an idiot.

Yeah, it was the Starship. I liked them though, even after the Airplane. “We Built This City”, not so much. Horrible. Nuclear Furniture is the last album I remember somewhat digging, but I was like 10 so what do I know?

The new Mark Lanegan is supposed to be awesome. Hey dorks! There’s a band from Seattle I like! Screaming Trees. I dig Dulli, too, but mostly Whigs stuff, especially Black Love.

I’ve been nostalgic the last few days thanks to a friend named Rachel, who I used to crush on really hard. She’ll see this and probably laugh at that because she is on my Facebook. I may have been drunk once and told her though. Who’s to know?

Bauhaus – namely the b-side to “Bela Lugosi’s Dead” called “Boys”.

The Cure – “Jumping Someone Else’s Train/Another Journey By Train” and “Birdmad Girl” off the very underrated drug-induced LP The Top.

Echo & The Bunnymen – “Villiers Terrace” – great lyrics – “people rolling around on the carpet, mixing up the medicine”. Also digging the self-titled LP from ’87.

The Smiths – Lonesome’s jam “Oscillate Wildly” made it onto a comp, also “I Want The One I Can’t Have” off the oft-discussed Meat Is Murder LP.

New Order – “Paradise” off their worst Factory album Brotherhood. Also the closer off my favorite album of all time, Technique, called “Dream Attack”.

The Smithereens – great NJ power pop. So undeniably underrated. Why they are not mentioned enough is beyond me.

Mr. Lonesome:

“White Rabbit” – not to sound cliché – but man, that is one of the best tracks of the 60s. It is so crazy-intense, and Grace wails. Though Jim Carrey totally ruined “Somebody to Love” for me in Cable Guy. All I can hear is that creepy vibrato.

I’ve heard something from Baroness, can’t tell you what it is. Yeah, I’m sure it will be genius groove-metal. Like Sabbath  ;o)

Mr. Mean:

“White Rabbit” is a damn fine song. Completely drug-addled goodness.

Sabbath is groove metal? What? The only double-o’s in their description should be doom.

Oh, and to get in on the obscure 80s metal, what about Powermad? Weren’t they in a Lynch movie? Great band, went nowhere. I think Lonesome may actually dig their sound.

Mr. On’ry:

I'm sorry but after Bark (1971) I can't really get behind anything that Jefferson Airplane did and I'm certainly not going to back anything after the name change.  Even they knew they were sullying the good name!

Sabbath is not "goove metal" you ding-dong.  "Groove metal" is a term bad music journalists use for bands like the Red Hot Chili Peppers.  Dolt. 

Speaking of obscure 80's bands do you remember Viking?  I'm having a flashback to their cover of Hell Is For Children!

Mr. Mean:

Totally remember Viking. I need to search that out.

No love for Powermad? Nothing?

Dude, how about Tankard, Running Wild, Dark Angel? And, I must admit, I loved Grim Reaper back then, though they are kinda cheesy the older I got.

Mr. On’ry:

My bad.  I was so into smacking Mr. Lonesome around a bit I skipped over the line about Powermad.  Yes, thumbs up.  The first record was on Combat, right? 

Good calls on all of the bands you listed but my favorite of the lot would be Tankard.  What about Raven? Riot?  Coroner?  Dude we could do this all day. 

Mr. Lonesome needs to defend his "groove metal" comment because I'm still affronted by it.  Ha!

Mr. Mean:

First record was on Combat, yes. The Absolute Power LP was on Warners.

I mentioned Riot last week on Facebook. I love them dude. Raven, hell yes, though they had some missteps. I loved Wacko’s hockey mask or whatever the hell it was he wore. Coroner, nice one. What about Sodom? Ludichrist? Forbidden?

I don’t understand the groove metal/Sabbath bit at all. I think he’s clearly listening to Infectious Grooves or Mindfunk.

Mr. On’ry:

Love, love, love Sodom.  Absolutely. 

He probably saw that recent Fishbone documentary and got confused.

Mr. Lonesome:

Hahaha OK. So we all know people throw out “labels” that attempt to define a genre. Maybe in the eyes of others, “groove metal” means something differently than what it does to me. So this is what I meant by it: slow, thunderous riffs that fit into the groove of the rhythm section. A lot of prog drummers will play along to the riffs. Other drummers, like Bill Ward, lays down a beat that is offset from the guitar riff. He finds a groove in the measure. It’s how I hear Sabbath. They aren’t speed/thrash metal. They have slower tempos and create darkness with mood. This is how I see Metallica post-Justice. They just became a rock band. Like AC/DC. They also have that groove to them.

I apologize if I offended anyone with my terminology. But since we agree journalists and insiders make up genres anyway….

Mr. Mean:

He just replied with his “they play slower” bit. Slow does not mean groovy. I don’t understand him sometimes.

Mr. Lonesome:

And groovy does not mean groove, jacknut.

Mr. On’ry:

Great explanation!  Thanks for taking the time to spell it out.   But did you honestly just compare Black Sabbath to post-Justice Metallica?!?  I may seriously hurt you when I see you.

Mr. Mean:

Lonesome, what you wrote makes no sense anyway. I was derailed because of it. My bad. Do you just sit back and read Rolling Stone and Pitchfork for your terminology?

It makes no sense to me. Especially the Sabbath/Metallica bit. I get seconds on kicking him.

Realization #1 today that will surely get me killed by either of you: I listened to “Enter Sandman” very loudly the other day in the car. It’s good. I have no problem with that song. Thunderous. And you can actually hear Newkid’s bass, so that is a plus from the album before it. I may go back and revisit the s/t album. A straight listen from start to finish on a drive in the car. No headphones crap. Loud stuff. Anyone have a copy on Vertigo they will give me? The Euro cd was supposedly much better sounding.

Mr. On’ry:

I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.  That has to be one of the dumbest effing songs ever written.  You are kidding me right?  Right?

Mr. Mean:

I knew it would make you yak and Lonesome jump for joy. No dude, I really think it’s good. I put away my “they slowed down” and “I’ve heard it a thousand times” bit and actually listened to it very loudly. It’s a great, hard-hitting song. The lyrics are pretty bunk but the song rules. It’s really, really heavy, just not fast. I am cool with that on this song.

Mr. Lonesome:

Wow. It must be my birthday.

Mr. On’ry:

I feel like this is an episode of the Twilight Zone where I'm the only sane motherf*cker left on Earth.  I have no words for this conversation except that it was one of the worst songs on the album and contains some of the dumbest lyrics I've ever heard.  Ever.  It's brutally simplistic to the point where I once played the entire songs on drums - me!  And I don't play drums!  It's a crapfest if there ever was one.

Mr. Lonesome:

Sorry. But it is catchy as hell. And when I watched them perform it at the MTV Video Awards, it confirmed in me the desire to play music. Though it’s not my favorite from that record, it has had an indelible impact on me and my love for music since then.

Mr. On’ry:

Eureka!  This would explain your sometimes horribly crappy taste in music! 

Mr. Mean:

Again, back to my “I don’t care about virtuosity” bit. On’ry said “It's brutally simplistic”. So effing what? A lot of music is simple. I don’t care if Ludwig Van Halentoven plays guitar like a god or composes the music of angels. If I went about not liking music because it was simple, I wouldn’t like punk or hardcore. But I do.

Mr. On’ry:

It's a horrible song and you two are idiots.

Mr. Mean:

Good comeback, Captain Sparkles.

Lonesome and I are gonna go get plastered one night and listen to this song, badmouthing your bird nest beard all night long.

Pink Floyd (or the Dark Side of our moon)

Mr. On’ry:

I think you both saw my Facebook post a week ago about how I (nicely!) asked my kids to pipe down so I could hear the Pink Floyd song that came up on the iPod.  The song was "Breathe" from Dark Side of the Moon and all I could think of was...how does Mr. Mean not like this album (or especially Wish You Were Here)???  I have a theory about why but I'll let him berate me first.

Mr. Mean:

I love DSOTM, dude. That is the last Pink Floyd album I do like. Never liked anything that followed, even as a kid when The Wall was huge.

Mr. On’ry:

My bad.  But as a professed lover of synths how do you not like Wish You Were Here?  That album is tailor-made for you!

Mr. Mean:

Synths dominate Tiffany’s first album. Doesn’t mean I like her stuff, either. The songs, for me, just meander and are completely, utterly, overblown. Animals is ghastly. The only thing they did post-1973 that is reasonably decent is The Final Cut, and that is only because of the subject matter and the overtones of the album as a whole. But, no, I don’t own that one either. Between 1967-1973, they were brilliant, the best psych/prog mainstream band of the era. After that period, they just don’t do it for me.

Mr. On’ry:

Right and Slipknot screams and plays fast, doesn’t mean I like their stuff either.  Your logic is flawed in that first sentence because you liked Floyd up to a certain point and I was pointing out that I thought you would approve of their more synth-heavy work knowing your love of synths and your previous liking of the band.   Didn’t add up to me until you explained it in more detail.  I personally don’t own anything past it but I think Wish You Were Here is a great album.

Mr. Mean:

You like their masks. Admit it.

Mr. On’ry:

I’d like to poop in their masks before they put them on.  I can’t think of a group of bands I detest more than this mainstream version of “metal” that gets pushed on the unknowing youth of America – Slipknot, Korn, Avenged Sevenfold, Disturbed, etc., etc., etc.  I’d even throw Mastodon into this group now because that new record was an abomination that they had to have created to only sell more records.  I can’t honestly think of any other reason why they would get done with it and go, ‘Yeah, this sounds spot on!’

Mr. Mean:

Everyone knows good metal comes from Sweden these days…except for the bozo who has not chimed in yet. He’s probably listening to D*uche Magnetic.

Mr. On’ry:

Careful.  He’ll hear you and come on hear and start talking about how “heavy” that album is. 

Mr. Lonesome:

Wish You Were Here is a brilliant record, from the first note to the last. It’s an experience for sure. “Shine On” is such a tricky song, played in 12/8 during the opening guitar/synth bit. It’s a strange time measure that builds wicked tension for me. Then those four notes: buh-BUH-buh-buuuuuh. It’s said Roger Waters heard that riff and built the entire concept around it.

Lyrically, it’s unequalled in reflecting upon a fallen messiah. There’s even the story of Syd showing up in the studio one night, shaved head and brows, no one had seen him in years. He sat down, and Nick Mason recognized him, said to the others “I think that’s Syd.” And it was while they were listening to “Shine On” during the mixing process. Eerie they said. He said “I’m ready to rejoin the band.”

“Welcome to the Machine” is a wickedly dark, stark piece that showcases that lonely acoustic underneath an ocean of electronics. It is one of those songs that really plays with the lyrical concept it sings. Gilmour’s voice is scary and somber, with that lower-end voice harmonizing below it. The synth solos are wild.

“Have A Cigar” is a biting commentary on the idiocracy of the music business itself. Roger couldn’t sing it, as his voice was shredded from “Shine On.” Gilmour wouldn’t sing it, because he found the lyrics to vitriolic. So they brought in Roy Harper, who sounds like a mix between Waters and Gilmour to me anyhow. The lyrics are fantastic and ironic and scathing all at once. And a wonderful guitar solo through the outro.

Then, yes, we have that genius radio channel-changing bit: right into the Title Track. A lovely acoustic with piano keys that rain on top of it. An ode that is very much quoted today, with some very striking lyrical imagery and a sing-a-long chorus. As beautiful as it gets.

And we end with the reprise of “Shine On” which happens to have one of my favorite steel-guitar solos of all time. I love the build-up into swirls of chaos before bringing the tempo back to the original verse speed.

I think this is an album everyone should listen to with headphones, uninterrupted. And if then you don’t like it, fair enough. You probably never will. But it brings in all the elements of what I consider to be a perfect record.

Also, I freaking love “Animals” and “The Wall” – “The Final Cut” has its moments (“Not Now John”), but it bores me like all solo albums from Roger Waters. I don’t think it stands the test of time like the rest.

Mr. On’ry:

Yeah, what he said.

Mr. Lonesome:

I think this is where we all get defensive about the albums we love. Our passion flows over because we think everyone should love them like we do. But that will never happen. The best course is to try and explain why WE love them, and then hope others will give a record or band a chance upon the courteous imploring of the madmen we are!

Also, if Mr Mean doesn’t like the record it’s only because he’s a contrarian extraordinaire. And a dick.

Mr. Lonesome:

Oh, and additionally:

“The only thing they did post-1973 that is reasonably decent is The Final Cut” – Seriously?? “reasonably decent??” That is such a ridiculous statement. I’ve already discussed WYWH. I’ll skip “Animals” since I know you will never bow to reason on why it’s a fantastic record.

So let’s go to “The Wall” – please explain to me how there is nothing “reasonably decent” on here. The whole first side is strong. The second has “Hey You” and “Comfortably Numb.” Please explain how this album, in your opinion, is not “reasonably decent.”

“Between 1967-1973, they were brilliant” – Ummagumma is a mess of experimentation. The Soundtrack to “More” has some moments. Tell me you would rather listen to “Alan’s Psychedelic Breakfast” than “The Wall.”

Their first two albums were psychedelic wonderments (I prefer “Saucerful of Secrets” to “Piper”), then they had a terrific experimental phase, up through Meddle. With “Echoes” they made the song they always wanted to. With DSotM, they made an ALBUM like they always wanted to (that one consistent, flowing movement). After that, they became the most significant progressive rock band in the world, with thematic concepts, stunning music, inimitable mystique. They were always pushing themselves to the verge of reinvention.

Pink Floyd is the Quintessential Awesome.

Mr. On’ry:

Yeah, what he said (again).

Mr. Lonesome:

And… AND: Mr Mean states the best metal is from Sweden yet somehow doesn’t like Opeth.

Jag vill slå honom!!!!

Mr. Mean:

     1. Not a fan of The Wall, ding dong. In fact, it is rare that I like a cover version better than an original. Scissor Sisters’ cover of “Comfortably Numb” is genius and light years better than Floyd’s. Up yours.

     2.  Yes, I’d rather listen to “Alan’s Psychedelic Breakfast”, all sides of Ummagumma, More, and even Zabriskie Point over the effing Wall.

      3. You prefer A Saucerful of Secrets over Piper at the Gates. No surprise. I think you are daft with that statement anyway, but we have come to expect that.

      4. Hey idiots. I’ll debunk your popularity thing right now. DSOTM had spent more weeks on the Billboard Top 200 chart (duh, it’s very popular) than any other album and I love that album from start to finish. So, you both are wrong on that slant.

5. Opeth blows. Morons.

Mr. Lonesome:

         1.  That is probably the most idiotic thing I’ve ever read. Scissor Sisters, dude? I saw them perform it on SNL, and it was entertaining. But c’mon! Plus, saying you aren’t a fan of “The Wall” is fine enough. But I’d like to know why. It has a slew of songs that are the best they ever did. It has a high concept that actually makes a double album work (albeit it’s only about 60 minutes total).

        2.  Have fun listening to “The Grand Vizier’s Garden Party” you lunatic. Because we know Nick Mason is a genius songwriter.

      3. Explain why this is no surprise to you? The songs are darker, more complex. I like Syd, but I prefer seriousness to whimsy.

      4. Not my claim, but I wouldn’t have been shocked to believe it. Because YOU are the daft lunatic.

       5. Why? Explain.

      Mr. Mean:

       1. I stand by my statement. As far as The Wall having, as you say, “a slew of songs that are the best they ever did”, we can agree to disagree. It’s bloated overblown concept rubbish.

      2. I will.

     3. It’s no surprise because, as has been stated numerous times before, we both agree on a band, on a period, etc. and totally disagree on their best works.

    4. It’s a stupid claim. You both are lunatics. Daft ones.

    5. Never liked what I heard from them. Mind you, I have not listened to anything from like 1998 onwards. But, I listened to several albums of theirs only to be completely bored to tears.

    Mr. Lonesome:

      1. I’m going to punch you. Then while you are on the ground, dazed, I will put headphones on your ears. Then I will probably kick you a couple times. Then I will make you listen to The Wall while I watch. Yeah, that’s right. I like to watch. Then once it’s over, I will ask you to explain exactly what is bloated about it, and how the word rubbish is involved. Then I will kick you again, for liking Morrissey. Then I will ask once more about the rubbish claim – as in, you don’t believe the story. Or that it’s written poorly? You need to elaborate. Because even though the tour might have been overblown, the album absolutely is not.

       2. I’m curious – what do you like about side 2 of Ummagumma? This is crazy-intriguing to me. Break it down. Because outside of “The Narrow Way” and being stoned while listening to “Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together in a Cave and Grooving with a Pict” I don’t get the appeal at all. Particularly when it’s being preferred over The Wall.

 Mr. Mean. 

The Wall is horrible. Ummagumma is great. I love their experimentation.

*O.k., so tell us: Is The Wall overrated?  What’s the best Pink Floyd record?  What band should we argue about next?

Morrissey - The Man, The Myth...

Mr. Lonesome:

Morrissey.  I just don’t get the love for this guy. Maybe it’s because I’m not a depressed teenage girl (hey, everyone has a niche!). I just listened to “Why Can’t I Be You” and it further compels my believe that Robert Smith does it right for a Brit-Moper. He can be incredibly dynamic.

And he had better hair.

Mr. On’ry:

We all know my hatred for Morrissey is well documented.  I’ve said it time and time again – The Smiths would be one of my all-time favorite bands if they had a different vocalist.  I don’t recall ever wanting to slap another human being as much as I do that ding-dong. 

Mr. Lonesome:

Even Smiths fans thinks his lyrics to “Meat Is Murder” are absurd. Personally, they want me to not just eat meat, but I don’t even wanna take the time to cook it. I just wanna bite the back of a cow. He doesn’t even have to be dead. And it’s all Morrissey’s fault.

Mr. On’ry:

Well I’m not going to fight with you over your urge to go all Twilight on a cow but you have my support in the anti-Morrissey fan club. 

M. Lonesome:

Yes. Perhaps I was a bit extreme.

Interestingly, “Oscillate Wildly” is a fantastic song. And I don’t generally like instrumentals by bands not named Rush.

Mr. Mean:

You guys are morons. Whether you like Morrissey or not, and yes there are missteps to his lyrics (Meat Is Murder is ghastly indeed), the guy has a great pen. I am shocked that both of you bozos don’t recognize this. Whether you like his voice or not, the guy can write a song. He’s witty, and speaks a lot from his upbringing. Musically, Johnny Marr is a fantastic player. I’m sure you’d love to thumb-pick like he does but your appendages are so far up your backsides that you can’t begin to do it. Back to Morrissey. Yes, he has a unique voice. It’s an acquired taste. You either love it or hate it. But, how is it different from that of a crooner like Bobby Darin? Have you heard Morrissey’s cover of “Moon River”? Probably not. He’s an entertainer, first and foremost. He could sing the Cole Porter songbook and probably make a killing. I have seen him twice, and had a slim chance to see The Smiths when they were still a band. He puts on a great effing show. The Smiths struck a nerve. You don’t have to be a depressed girl or whatever crap you tools wrote. They were perfect for Thatcher’s England because they were political, from a working city, and came about when bands with makeup and electronics (nothing wrong with this) ruled the airwaves. They, along with Orange Juice and Aztec Camera put the guitars back into pop music. These were songs not unlike Link Wray or Hank Marvin or freakin’ The Ventures. They were bands who wrote great indie pop records at a time when excess ruled and wearing a t-shirt and jeans was not cool. They brought back a certain feel, the Warhol/Factory vibe, of art and style and delicacy that was lacking in England, and America, for that matter.

From: “Half A Person”:

And if you have five seconds to spare

Then I'll tell you the story of my life

Sixteen, clumsy and shy

That's the story of my life

Brilliant. Robert Smith never wrote any better. Morons.

And…The Cure? Really? I love them, but they have made several missteps over their career. Wild Mood Swings and Bloodflowers for starters. They are not a consistent band in any way. Their last classic record, start to finish, was The Head On The Door and that was 1985. Singles-wise, they are a brilliant band. But, they have a lot of filler. The Smiths, and Morrissey to an extent, are not littered with filler in my opinion. Their B-sides are fantastic.

There’s a guy I love called Richard Hawley. He played for a band called Longpigs in the Britpop days and joined Pulp on tour a few times. He’s done some amazing records that basically picked up where The Smiths left off as far as I am concerned. You’d be in good company if you sat and had a listen to his stuff. Check out Cole’s Corner sometime, the song and album. Inspired stuff.

Keep listening to Metallica’s later “melodic rubbish” period, Lonesome, and whatever that boring dirge crap was you posted on my Facebook wall last night, On’ry. I’ll gladly keep my Morrissey/Smiths stuff in my collection.

Mr. On’ry:

Tomorrow morning I’m going to pick this back up…and completely annihilate what you just spewed.  Be forewarned.

Mr. Lonesome:

Exactly. We can continue this tomorrow. In time to erase that lobotomy.

(editor’s note:  It was decided to break for the day here because death threats were sent and blood was starting to flow…not really but it would have.)

Mr. Mean:

I await your ill-educated attempts at trying to go against my huge knowledge of English indie rock and post punk music, especially if it came from Manchester. Bozos. You’re walking into flames. Have a go at it. I’ll laugh. Everything I said below is completely true.

Mr. On’ry:

 I would never try to educate you. I'm just going to blow up your logic. 

Mr. Mean:

If you both would actually put your hatred of Morrissey the vocalist away and read some of his lyrics, you would maybe realize that he is a talented writer. Or maybe not. Lonesome started the rubbish by mentioning “Meat Is Murder” lyrics. So yeah, you attacked the writing, not the vocalist so much. I know you both hate his voice. That’s painfully obvious. It’s like the other idiot and his hatred of Lou Reed. So what if you don’t like his voice…recognize the fact that he wrote some damn good songs. Everyone, including Lonesome, always brings up the lyrics to “Meat Is Murder”. Yeah, it’s crap. We know it. Everyone who likes The Smiths knows it. It’s a crock. Have you guys ever listened to the entire Queen Is Dead album start to finish? It’s easy to do because it is a whopping 37 mins in length. It’s genius. I was talking to my wife about it last night and she mentioned that the lyrics that sound “mopey” and were written by a “depressed teenage girl” or whatever the eff you dum-dums said are the ones that he wrote to basically detail the struggle with his sexuality. “Pretty Girls Make Graves” and “Girl Afraid” are very strong in that sense. From the social standpoint (not PETA) you have “Suffer Little Children” and “The Headmaster Ritual”. Very strong songs about some very disgusting subjects. “Barbarism Begins At Home” (one of my all-time top-5 Smiths songs) is pretty much about child abuse. He wasn’t mopey to be mopey. He wrote about his surroundings in Manchester as a kid and as a young adult. The 1970s and 1980s were very disjointed times in England, especially in the North. There was a lot of oppression and tension, and it was the college-age folks who were feeling the pinch. The Smiths came about at the right time for a lot of people. You can hate a band all you want, but centering in on one song, like Lonesome always effing does, shows me you don’t know the catalogue very well or have just decided to ignore it because of one song.

Mr. Lonesome:

I’m keeping this strictly about Morrissey, not The Smiths, or Johnny Marr (who’s best record, in my opinion, is with Modest Mouse), or The Cure, or Thatcher’s England (which would be an awesome band name!).

“Meat Is Murder” was brought up because it is awful in its bombastic over-drama. Not necessarily because he was clumsy with his words. Speaking of clumsy, what makes that four line lyric “brilliant” – without any context, it’s just whatever. Please explain what makes it so. Is it because you were once “sixteen, clumsy and shy?” Is it brilliant because you relate to it specifically?

I take offense to you saying I always focus on one song. If you read it properly, you’ll notice I also mentioned “Oscillate Wildly”  ;o)


We all listen to music for various reasons. And I find it ironic you can bash for us not recognizing his great pen, whereas I love latter-Metallica for a similar reason. I think that era is Hetfield’s strongest vocally and lyrically. All songs have something to offer, and that’s why we love them.

That being said, I completely agree with your comment that Morrissey would be a great crooner. And I think that’s what rubs me. I don’t want to hear Frank Sinatra fronting the Clash, or Michael Buble fronting Def Leppard.

And seriously: there was a time when wearing jeans and a t-shirt wasn’t cool, especially in the music world? Crazy.

Mr. Mean:
1)  Modest Mouse over “Bigmouth Strikes Again”? Dumb. I really cannot wait to hit you in your lady parts.
2) The line “Sixteen, clumsy, and shy” is brilliant. I loved high school, but there were awkward times. If anyone says otherwise they are lying. It’s a song that brings me back to a certain age. I was 16 in 1989, a huge year of my life musically. Also, many bands from Manchester have used the word “sixteen” in brilliant pop songs, namely The Smiths and Buzzcocks. But, I bet you hate them, too.
3) I’m not even going to argue about “Oscillate Wildly”. It’s an instrumental.
4) Did I ever once say that Hetfield’s lyrics in later day Metallica was bad? Name one time I said his lyrics were crap. You can’t. I always maintained that their music of the last 20 years has been weak. I am not a fan of “The Unforgiven” but it does have some great words.
5) On’ry doesn’t want to hear The Clash period. That’s another thread waiting to happen
6) In the 1980s pop music world, yes, it was uncool to wear t-shirts and jeans. The hair bands wore makeup and ripped spandex. The new romantics wore makeup and Armani suits. In 1983, you would be hard-pressed to find a video on MTV that had just a regular bunch of guys playing jangly pop music. Maybe R.E.M. and U2 (another On’ry hatred) but really, not much else.

Mr. Lonesome:

I just adore when you number your points!!!

1. I’m not a Modest Mouse fan. But “We Were Dead Before the Ship Even Sank” is a phenomenal record, and I firmly believe it’s because of the Marr influence. But again, this isnt about Johnny.
2. You still never said why it’s brilliant. Only that you were 16 at some point as well. You want a brilliant, short lyric? Here’s six words that will wreck you, courtesy of Hemingway: “For Sale. Baby Shoes. Never Worn.” That, sir, is brilliant, because it evokes an indelible image by telling a story that forces the reader to ascertain the context. It makes your brain branch off into myriad ways to figure out “how did he die? Who are these parents? How are they coping? Will they try for another? Etc.” Being 16 and clumsy and shy, that’s as common a feeling as a Phil Collins’ love lyrics. Not to undermine how it hits you, specifically. But tossing around “brilliant” is pretty excessive.
3. It’s a GREAT instrumental. Which also makes me wonder: why didn’t he ever try to put down a vocal melody to it.
4.  And that’s the crux of all this. You wont listen to any of those records because you think the songs suck. And that’s a fair, subjective reason. I wont listen to the Smiths, or any solo Morrissey, because I don’t care for his voice. No matter how good his pen is. They are separate things.
5.  On’ry is in for a reckoning.
6. I don’t know. Didn’t Sting wear that attire? I’m sure XTC must have. Also: do you consider The Smiths a pop or rock band?

Mr. Mean:
1)I do think MM are much better with Johnny Marr. That is a true statement for sure.
2) It’s brilliant to me. Anything that evokes innocence and nostalgia 20+ years later and still strikes a chord is brilliant as far as I am concerned. Nice touch with the Hemingway quote. Riveting stuff.
3)  No clue. I do know that Morrissey helped write the music to it.
4) I did listen to those records. I called you out because I can guarantee that you (and the other one) have probably never listened to a Smiths record from start to finish. Well, maybe On’ry has because his wife, who has great taste and a face to go with it, likes them. You started this crap by mentioning the mopey aspects and the lyric to one horrible song. I am saying that it is not all mopey, like you say. You assume it is because that is what you want to believe considering Morrissey’s demeanor or whatever. The effing Smiths are a jangle pop band. They are the Byrds with a crooner. There is nothing, zilch, that is depressing about them, musically or vocally. You want mopey? Go listen to the second, third, and fourth Cure albums. That is depressing and maddening because Robert Smith was taking a lot of drugs at the time.
5) He thinks The Clash are overrated. I disagree, but whatever. “White Man In Hammersmith Palais” and “Rudie Can’t Fail” are genius and he can just shut up.
6)  Sting is irrelevant. Always has been. If you want to fuel some fire on my end, mention your love of The Police. They are singlehandedly the most overrated band in history next to The Eagles. And no, I am not lumping the Beatles in that mix because I can appreciate some of their works. XTC probably wore paisley button downs because they are totally psychedelic.

Mr. Lonesome:

You do realize his nickname is The Pope of Mope, right?

Additionally, I have listened to the Smiths. The girl Mr Lonesome lost his virginity to was a big Smiths fan. Believe me, I tried. She made me.

And we’ll have to duke it out on the Police another day. I think they have some incredibly high points. Stewart Copeland is a genius percussionist, plus he wrote the awesome theme song to The Equalizer!

Mr. Mean:

Lost your virginity? I thought you were eunuch?

The Police. Oh deary dear. The only thing they released that is worth any merit are three songs: their debut 45 “Fallout/Nothing Achieving” and “Can’t Stand Losing You”. That is it. Nothing else. We shall fight some other time though. That said, The Equalizer was a damn fine show. Edward effing Woodward, man!

I think On’ry is writing a novel in which to make his argument known. Or he is crying his tears into an Emmylou Harris record.

Mr. On’ry:

O.k., let’s start with Mr. Mean’s original freak out.  Let’s dispel a myth here: I don’t hate The Smiths.  I would never deny their influence and place in music history (and yes I have listened to multiple albums from start to finish, I’m not such a chode that I would make sweeping comments about an artist without giving them a fair shake first).  The songs themselves (sans vocals) are exceptional.  Hell my album of the day later today on my other blog <plug, plug> is The Boy With The Arab Strap by Belle & Sebastian and they are certainly a band that owes at least a partial debt to The Smiths (and yes I know they are Scottish and not British so don’t have another aneurysm over there).  If  you had taken a break from being a spazz for a moment and actually read what I wrote I went out of my way to distinguish that the one thing I don’t like about The Smiths is Morrissey’s vocals.  Period.  That’s probably why I hate him so much because he basically took a sonic dump on a band that could have been one of my favorites.  You say he’s a great lyricist.  Fantastic.  Then go be a poet and stop trying to sing your “brilliant” lyrics (which by the by I’m with Lonesome again on this.  Stop calling every lyric he writes brilliant because guess what there are hundreds of other artists who wrote lyrics just as good about subjects just as dark.  He’s not the first nor the last to write about his surroundings and find darkness and despair and he won’t be the last.)  Bravo again to Lonesome on the crooner point.  So if Harry Conick Jr. fronted The Pixies you’d be o.k. with that?  I don’t have to apologize for not liking someone’s vocals, just like you don’t have to apologize for hating Layne Staley and Lonesome doesn’t have to apologize for not liking grindcore/death/black metal.  So stuff it.

Secondly you said, “. They were perfect for Thatcher’s England because they were political, from a working city, and came about when bands with makeup and electronics…”  That may be true but they weren’t the soundtrack for Thatcher’s England.  That would be all the great punk rock that emerged from the UK in the 70’s to early/mid-80’s: The Business, Crass, UK Subs, The Exploited, Broken Bones, etc.  I’m ashamed and embarrassed for you that you think Morrissey did more to write about the political and economic strife of that era than these bands.  Why?  Because he wrote about being confused about his sexuality or not wanting to eat meat? (and wore jeans and a t-shirt which according to you was REALLY revolutionary…look out he’s changing the world with that noise!)  You’re kidding me, right?  I know you know better than that.  Morrissey’s historical importance has been greatly overstated time and time again where this is concerned.

The Cure.  Again this is a perfect example of you throwing out superfluous statements that are not grounded in reality.   You’re going to honestly try and tell me that Disintegration (1989) was not a complete album?  Seriously?  I don’t think so. 

I’m not talking about any other bands in this thread.  You want to start a separate thread for The Clash, Modest Mouse, REM, U2, The Police, Metallica,  etc. go for it.  I’m game to prove you wrong again.    

Mr. Lonesome:

I’m going to get my popcorn now. This is getting GOOD.

Mr. Mean:

He wakes up from his tofu-induced sleep!

OK, you hate his vocals. I get it. The other idiot always brings up one damn song and says the lyrics are stupid. Whatever. It’s gets boring.

Dude, I said they were perfect for Thatcher’s England for myriad reasons. I didn’t say they were the first, best, most relevant, or whatever. Punk alienated people. That was the point, somewhat. The Smiths are one of those bands that EVERYONE could like and appreciate. They are one of those bands that crossed genres without really being defined to one genre. Nice dig on the T-shirt and jeans bit. Even I laughed at your verbal slap in my face. I never said it was revolutionary, but it was an important shift at the time. The damned 80s are remembered for excess. They were a working class band who got noticed by writing great songs and just looking like normal people. They did not have to wear makeup to get noticed. The bit about their clothing was because the music, for once, started to talk and not what the video had in it. At the time, yes, it was damned important. It paved the way for other bands to follow suit over there, just the same as R.E.M. and The Replacements did over on this side of the pond. Those bands were very important for a lot of reasons, and that importance, style, back catalogue, and musicianship is why they have such rabid followings even to this day.

And yes, Disintegration has some filler. The Cure’s problem, starting in ’87 with Kiss Me Kiss Me Kiss Me, is that they started making longer albums because the cd format allowed them to do so and they all had filler. The Head On The Door is the last album they did where every song is great, as far as I am concerned. The following albums are good, but not classic. Sorry. And, for the record, Disintegration is one of the muddiest, most horribly produced albums ever. Up there with Sabbath’s Born Again, which I know you love so much.

I can’t be bothered with this anymore. You guys like Layne Staley and I like Morrissey. By the way, there is no comparison. Morrissey wins that battle hands down.

(editor’s note:  It was agreed at this point to simply “agree to disagree” forever and ever on Morrissey and a separate argument broke out over Alice In Chains…stay tuned!)

We start talking about Thrash Metal...and then two idiots verbally slap fight each other

Mr. Mean:

I watched the VH1 Classic documentary called Metal Evolution the other night. The episode was about thrash metal, so I was immediately hooked. It got me thinking about something. All of the “big 4” succumbed to making more accessible records, but Slayer was the only band that really kept it more akin to the sound of thrash metal. Even bands like Exodus, Overkill, and Testament kind of abandoned the sound later on. Besides the usual “major label” push to make more accessible sounding albums, does the fact that these guys are much older now (pushing or just over 50) mean they cannot play like they used to and therefore have to change their style a bit. I don’t play an instrument, so maybe this is a dumb question. But, I was watching Slayer perform “Raining Blood” on the recent tour and Dave Lombardo just does not have the speed he used to have. He can still outplay any of his peers (up yours, Lars), but the dude is older now.

Also, one more thing Mr. On’ry…why do you hate Anthrax so much? Vocals? I have a hard time with that because King Diamond sings higher than Joey Belladonna any day and you love his stuff. Please tell me you at least love S.O.D.

M. On’ry:

First of all, have you actually listened to anything Slayer has put out since Divine Intervention (1994)?  It’s all garbage and is absolutely more accessible to the fans of all that frat-core, mainstream, Slipknot-loving, chugga-chugga crap.  So before you heap all this praise on Slayer for staying “true” I’d be very careful.  Sure they didn’t go full on ‘mainstream’ like Metallica but you could argue that a) they softened their sound just like all the others you mentioned and b) Megadeth has done an equal job with them trying to stay as true to their sound as possible (which really is another indictment of Slayer’s last 15+ years of output). 

Anthrax.  Let’s get one thing straight first.  I don’t “hate” Anthrax.  I just think they are extremely overrated and I could give you literally 25+ thrash bands from that era that did it better.  The vocals don’t bother me as much as the fact that a) they weren’t as good as people made them out to be and b) they helped invent nu-metal the day they stepped on stage with Public Enemy (whom I actually like a lot better than Anthrax btw) and for that I can never forgive them.

Mr. Mean:

Feisty right out of the gate! If you’re calling Among The Living overrated, you are nuts.

Mr. On’ry

The only truly redeeming thing about any Anthrax record is that they actually worked with Angelo Badalamenti on their Twin Peaks homage song “Black Lodge”.  Everything else is fine but completely over-shadowed by Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer, Testament, Possessed, Exodus, Kreator, Overkill, Tankard, Whiplash, etc., etc. etc.  Want me to keep going?  Again I never said they suck they just aren’t as good as everyone made them out to be.  Scott Ian has this cult of personality around him that people/fans would gravitate to and ignore the fact that he’s one of the most overrated guitar players in metal history. 

Mr. Mean:

Wrong. Scott Ian has some great riffs dude. He’s got the whole NYHC vibe and I dig that about their (old) sound. They were as crossover as D.R.I. and Crumbsuckers. I listen to their Megaforce period between ‘85-‘90 and I can totally see them playing a matinee HC show at CBs or something. A bill with Anthrax and Cro-Mags would be damned good in NYC.

Mr. Lonesome:

Me hating thrash is a big misnomer. I just don’t enjoy as much as the heavy, melodic, down-tempo stuff (and yes, I’m referring to a band like Sabbath).

Mr Mean – I’m actually the one that hates Belladonna-era Anthrax. I don’t think they are as good as a “Big Four” ranking serves them. Though they do get mad props for writing a song about the Black Lodge. And I think Scott Ian is a pretty funny fella. I just think they are good for NYC. But Thrash is undeniably West Coast to me.

One band I love, be hometown biased or not, is Flotsam & Jetsam. I think their early thrash records are is good as anyone’s.

And to your earlier point, yes. Age can definitely affect one’s playing ability, especially in a genre such as Thrash. But even in a genre like good ol’ Rhythm and Blues. I saw Chuck Berry a few years back in CT. His voice was on point. But his playing was incredibly sloppy. And as the show went on, you could hear his amp being turned down more and more to where it wasn’t even audible.

I’d say a 70 year old Rhythm & Blues  guitarist is pretty akin to a 50 year old Thrash guitarist.

Mr. Mean:

I figured you would like Belladonna since you are such a Geoff Tate fan. Very similar. I love Anthrax with Belladonna, and I love Armored Saint with Bush. Together, no. At least it wasn’t as bad as John Corabi in Motley Crue. The big deal about Anthrax with John Bush is that they went away from their thashing and went all melodic. Sound of White Noise is their Black Album. That said, Black Lodge kicks. But so does Enter Sandman.

I liked Flotsam & Jetsam’s early Metal Blade stuff. When they signed to MCA, horrible. Then again, Newkid was gone.

Mr. Lonesome:

And not surprisingly, Sound of White Noise is the only Anthrax album I own. “Potter’s Field,” “Only,” “Packaged Rebellion,” “Room For One More” are all really great tracks.

I just don’t think Belladonna is anywhere near someone like Tate. Personal taste, though. They had some riffs that were cool. I just don’t see them as being worthy musically. Though they do get credit for being instrumental in the early Thrash scene by giving Metallica a place to crash  ;o)

Mr. Mean:

When Metallica came to NY is when they signed with Elektra, I think. “Only” was a pretty good song, too. I may pick that cd up for a penny or something on Amazon. It’s got some moments that are worth $2.98 total with shipping.

Mr. Lonesome:

Elektra re-issued it in 1988, but originally it was recorded with Jon Zazula as one of the producers.

Mr. Mean:

Sound Of White Noise was 1993 dude. What the hell are you talking about?

Mr. Lonesome:

I’m talking about Metallica, idiot. You said “when Metallica came to NY is when they signed with Elektra.” If your “they” was Antrax, you need to be more clear.

Mr. Mean:

Let’s decipher this since you are the one who is clearly stupid.

You said: Though they (Anthrax) do get credit for being instrumental in the early Thrash scene by giving Metallica a place to crash  ;o)

I said: When Metallica came to NY is when they signed with Elektra, I think

NY is where Anthrax lives. I was commenting on your stupid post.

Onward…I mentioned: “Only” was a pretty good song, too. I may pick that cd up for a penny or something on Amazon. It’s got some moments that are worth $2.98 total with shipping.

Clearly this is about the Anthrax album. Not any Metallica album. Both bands had albums on Elektra; Sound of White Noise was Anthrax’s first for Elektra since leaving Island.

You then said: Elektra re-issued it in 1988, but originally it was recorded with Jon Zazula as one of the producers.

You are the idiot. First of all, Metallica signed to Elektra in 1984 and their first major label release was Master Of Puppets. Nothing was re-issued in 1988 except for the Megaforce albums Kill ‘em All and Ride The Lightning, so duh, Zazula.

Where the hell is the other guy?

(*editors note: Mr. On'ry decided at this point to sit back and watch the idiocy unfold for a few minutes...)

Mr. Lonesome:

Man, you are dense. We were clearly talking about how Anthrax helped Metallica when Metallica needed a place to stay while recording Kill ‘Em All in NYC for Megaforce Records in Rochester in 1983 with Zazula as a producer.

Mr. Mean:

That’s not what we originally said you moron! All I said was that I think that is how they met the people at Elektra. I don’t know for certain. You never mentioned Kill Em All, Megaforce or Zazula once…until now. You misread what I wrote and completely didn’t understand that I was talking about effing Sound Of White Noise!

Once again, we talk about Metallica, and we argue. Next subject. Let’s discuss how I am going to kick you in the marbles when I see you again.

Mr. Lonesome:

But your comment about NY was directly after I mentioned how Anthrax let them crash when they got to NY (which was to record Kill ‘Em All).   Then you brought up Elektra. So you are dumb.

Mr. Mean:

I get it dumdum, but in your original post below, you never mentioned Kill Em All. I brought up Elektra because I thought, THOUGHT, they met Metallica when they were in NY. Either way, I am going to kick you.

Mr. Lonesome:

Either way, YOU are dumb.

Mr. Mean:

Why am I dumb? Because you bring up tidbits after the fact to clean up your mess and your misunderstanding? Clearly I am dumb then because I made you type stuff out half-assed.

Mr. Lonesome:

Because we were directly talking about Metallica being in NY, and you said you didn’t think they went to NY until they signed with Elektra. I was throwing down the knowledge that they came to NY prior to signing with Elektra. It’s that simple.

Mr. On’ry:

I stand by my original statement that Anthrax are overrated.  Again, you want “crossover” bands I’ll take D.R.I., Cryptic Slaughter, Crumbsuckers and about a half dozen other bands who did it better than Anthrax.  End of story.  And as for you two arguing semantics you both just sound like 7 year olds.  Moving on…

Mr. Lonesome:

He sounds 7. I’m at least 8 or 9.