The Criminally Underrated?

Mr. Lonesome:

If it one phrase I hate, it’s “criminally underrated” – not coincidentally, it’s something that Mr Mean uses almost as much as “daft.”

However, the concept is good. We muse over our favorite bands – the good and bad records, etc. Where they excelled, where they took a misstep. I thought it would be fun to name some records from our favorite bands that are usually overshadowed by their more well-known efforts (Mr Mean always cites Signals when talking Rush, whereas many would say Moving Pictures or 2112 or Permanent Vacation as the ones they consider epic).

Here’s a few to get this moving (I’m feeling very English today):

Radiohead – Hail to the Thief (no one ever talks about this record. But it is fantastic. Behind only OK Computer and The Bends in my mind. I’d rather listen to it over Kid A).

The Beatles – Help! (no one ever talks about this record, but the title track is one of John’s best. Add to that “You’ve Got to Hide Your Love Away,” “Ticket to Ride,” “Yesterday.” It’s solid throughout. I’d rather listen to it over The White Album).

Supergrass – Supergrass (I know Mr Mean will want to punch me on this one. But this, to me, is their perfect record. No song gets skipped. It reminds me of a Kinks album set in the 1990s but with their 1960s mentality. I’d rather listen to it over I Should Coco).

Pulp – This is Hardcore (dark and brilliant. His ‘n’ Hers and Different Class get the love, but I’d rather listen to this over both of them. If not for the title track alone).

Mr. Mean:

First of all, dum-dum, Permanent Waves is the Rush album you’re thinking about. Quit listening to Aerosmith.

Secondly, “criminally underrated” is a bit extreme, yes, but that makes the point stronger. If I had my way, I’d lock people up for not buying a certain artist or album. You’re daft. Idiot.

About your list…wow, I want to punch you. Radiohead and Fab Four aside, because they are so damned overrated it isn’t funny, I think you are a nutcase for saying the self-titled Supergrass is better than I Should Coco. Every single song, start to finish, works well on Coco. There’s some filler on the self-titled album. Pulp is tricky. The first half of This Is Hardcore is excellent, but after a while, it loses me a bit. Different Class was perfect from start to finish. You’re a moron.

A small list from me:

Echo & The Bunnymen – Crocodiles (everyone goes straight to Ocean Rain because of the arrangements and “The Killing Moon”, but their debut is hands down their best album – full of young energy)

R.E.M. – Lifes Rich Pageant (Murmur and Automatic for the People get the love, but Lifes Rich Pageant is brilliant – some of their heaviest songs “These Days”, “Begin The Begin” are on it, as well as some interesting acoustic arrangements)

Public Image Limited – The Flowers Of Romance (brutal rhythmically and sonically sparse, it is the darkest album Lydon was ever a part of – it is mostly percussion and found sounds)

Ween – 12 Golden Country Greats (there’s only 10 songs, so haha courtesy of Ween – the album is great, traditional-sounding country, with a host of old Nashville vets playing on it)

Mr. Lonesome:

Hahaha Man, how in the world did I mess up a Rush album! Especially the one with two of my favortie songs, “Jacob’s Ladder” and “Natural Science.” Totally my bad.

And I actually don’t own any full-lenghts by Aerosmith.

Radiohead and the Fab Four being so damned overrated is so dumb. So so dumb. But that’s for another day.

I’m telling you, Supergrass hit the mark perfectly on their eponymous record. I love it, and there’s no filler to me at all. And “Moving’ is a song everyone should have in their library.

I can see the Pulp thing. The second half does slow it down in comparison to the first half. But it has some super high moments: “Seductive Barry” and “Sylvia” specifically.

Also, Johnny Lydon is awful no matter what band he’s in. One of the worst in the business. I’d rather kick a puppy than put his work in my ears. And I would never kick a puppy.

Ween is awesome! I’m glad you brought them up. But it’s hard to say one record might be better than the other because they are so eclectic. Country (the album you mentioned), soul (Chocolate and Cheese), prog (The Mollusk). They are all over the place, and pretty genius each time.

Mr. Mean:

Apparently you missed my Aerosmith quip. You mentioned Permanent Vacation, I mentioned Aerosmith. Put it together.

You should seek out PILs The Flowers of Romance and put headphones on. It is a very, very disturbing album. They took cues from Phil Collins’ drum production/recording techniques. It is one of the punchiest albums I have ever heard. I know you won’t listen to it, but whatever.

I saw Ween live in 1993. They played for an hour and a half and it was non-stop insanity. They are a very talented band, despite their obvious humor in lyrics and content. I don’t think that album is better than, say, The Pod or Pure Guava, but it is a very good record that no one seems to discuss.

Another album that is very underrated and overlooked is on my headphones right now: The Dream Academy’s s/t album. Everyone knows “Life In A Northern Town”, which is a great pop song. But this album is just dreamy, no pun intended. Some of it is very ambient and I can totally see the English misty mornings when I listen to this. Plus, David Gilmour produced most of it sans one song. It immediately went out of print around ’87 because I bought this cd in a cut-out bin at Record Town in the Palm Beach Mall back then for like $4.99, which was wicked cheap for a cd of any kind in 1987. It is my fourth cd I ever owned, behind The Cult (Love), The Cure (Staring at the Sea), and U2 (The Unforgettable Fire). I still have all of these.

Mr. Lonesome:

I didn’t miss your quip, idiot. I named their album instead of Rush’s album. I said “my bad.”

Well, I do like Phil Collins. He was a genius with his drum loops: “Man on the Corner” and “Tonight Tonight Tonight” are out of this world. And, I do like disturbing. But not sure those things outweigh my dislike of Johnny Lydon. There is nothing good about who he is or what he does.

Ween is one of those bands where I think “fellas, c’mon. You could have been one of the greatest!” I don’t fault them for going the zany route. But they are incredibly talented when it comes down to it. White Pepper shows how good they can craft songs when they want to.

Ah, the Dream Academy. I give Gilmour credit, he produced/found some very good artists (Kate Bush included). I haven’t listened to that album in a long long time. But “Life in A Northern Town” comes up in my 80s playlist now and then, and I never change it.

Mr. Mean:

Why the hate of Lydon? If you’re gonna hate anyone from the Pistols, I can understand if it was directed at McLaren or Sid Vicious. Lydon was smarter than the band and far more cultured. He didn’t belong in the Pistols but he was a part of something at the right time. With PIL, he did what he really wanted to do, which is make music influenced by his first loves: reggae/dub and prog. He’s a great pillar of knowledge when it comes to Jamaican music. I don’t know if you or On’ry like roots and dub, but I love it. Jamaican music from 1967-1979 was some of the best music ever recorded, and a lot of it was revolutionary via producers like Lee Perry and Coxsone Dodd. If you hate his Rotten persona, fine. But you really are missing out on some great music and some great insight if you dismiss him when he went back to Lydon.

I think Ween are Gen X’s version of Frank Zappa/Mothers. Endless talent, many different creative efforts, completely nuts.

Mr. Lonesome:

Personally, I don’t like Lydon as Lydon or Rotten. I find him arrogant and atrocious. That’s just how I feel.

And I don’t really care for roots and dub. I don’t discount reggae’s influence on rock music, with bands like the Police and Rush dipping into those rhythms pretty early on, but the music just doesn’t hit my sensibilities.

And I would absolutely agree with your Ween-Zappa assessment.

Mr. Mean:

You like Noel Gallagher, right? He’s as arrogant as they come. So is Sting. So is Roger Waters. Yet, you took time to listen to their bands.

If you don’t like reggae, you won’t like PIL. Skip it. But dude, as a bass player, it baffles me how you don’t care for reggae. The basslines are killer, especially on a nasty dub record. If your aural experiences with reggae lie solely with Bob Marley and UB40, you’re missing out.

Mr. Lonesome:

I happen to think Roger Waters is the finest rock lyricist of all time. He can be as arrogant and power mad as he wants (though he’s certainly mellowed over the years). Regarding Noel and Sting, I think they wrote some great songs. The Sex Pistols were fourth-rate. And the samplings I’d hear of PIL didn’t do anything for me to where I’d want to venture deeper.

Now, your point on bass playing is interesting. There’s no doubt that reggae bassists have a very unique groove. I can totally appreciate and respect the playing. But very rarely will I listen to something because an instrument is good. I mean, you won’t see any Mr. Big cds at my house no matter how phenomenal Billy Sheehan is. Same with guitars. Satch is a genius, but his songs do absolutely nothing for me.

Mr. On’ry:

Are you two children done?  Can I join you now?  First my brief comments on your own lists:

Mr. Lonesome – how can you say no one talks about Help! when they talk about the Beatles?!?  It’s practically the only record that gets love when people talk about pre-Rubber Soul Beatles.  I’m not following your logic on that one.  Plus you named multiple million selling singles that came off of it so…

Mr. Mean – The Ween/Zappa comparison was genius.  I never ever thought to look at it that way.  Well played.  R.E.M., not so much.  Plus if you want to throw around names of arrogant pieces of poo you can start with that crap stain of a vocalist Michael Stipe.

Here’s a couple albums I would add to this list:

Willie Nelson – Phases & Stages (His best album start to finish in my opinion yet gets constantly overshadowed by the next 6-7 years worth of albums which sold better)

Neil Young – Zuma (Harvest was the first CD I ever owned and albums like After The Gold Rush get more love but this album is absolutely brilliant and “Danger Bird” is one of the greatest songs ever written)

Black Sabbath – Technical Ecstasy (Never gets mentioned in any conversations, wasn’t even included in the Australian “Ozzy Years” box set.  You’d think they went from the first 6 albums right to Dio.  Wrong move to skip this album.  Some great songs on this album.)

The Doors – The Soft Parade (I know I’ve talked about this album way too much but it’s my favorite Doors album and never gets mentioned next to the likes of LA Woman or Morrison Hotel)

Judas Priest – Sad Wings of Destiny (I love, love, love this record.  The Ripper alone is a classic track.  Never gets discussed amongst the greatest J.P. albums)

Uncle Tupelo – their entire discography (Sorry but with as much love as Wilco and even Son Volt have gotten over the years no one seems to remember how effing amazing this band was.  Had to include them on the list.)

Mr. Lonesome:

Quick note on Help! – my point is that you always hear Rubber Soul, Revolver, Sgt Pepper’s, The White Album, and Abbey Road always discussed before this one. I think it gets overlooked, especially since it did have those multiple million selling singles (and some amazing non-singles).

Also, I think if you were to have an affair with a song, it would be “Danger Bird.” You even love the cover of it like it’s from your own brood.

Mr. On’ry:

I’ll agree with you that there are certain albums (like Sgt. Peppers) that get more love but I think between the singles, the movie of the same name, and the rabid nature of Beatles’ fans that you really can’t include this album on the list.

Dude I know you weren’t fond of the cover 27 did when I put it on that one comp but seriously, have you heard the original.  It’s so good.  I feel the same way about “Cortez The Killer” from the same album by the way.     

Mr. Lonesome:

So when I say The Beatles, Help! is one of the first five you think of? If so, awesome. It should be. But I think for most people it’s behind all that I listed. And I didn’t even mention Magical Mystery Tour, which I prefer to Sgt. Pepper’s 8 times out of 10.

How Mr Mean calls them the most overrated band of all time, with all those classic records, has me direly flummoxed.

Mr. On’ry:

No, but that’s only because it’s not one of my five favorite records.  I’d mention Revolver before any others and that’s also an album that doesn’t get as much love as others.  Sgt. Peppers is the most overrated album ever.  I like it.  But it’s not even the best Beatles album let alone “the best album of all time” as I have seen some publications call it.  Ridiculous. 

Mr. Mean:

They are overrated because they had a ton of filler on every album you mentioned except the two you know I like. Everyone kisses their collective butts. No effing way “Mean Mr. Mustard”, "Pepperland Laid Waste", or “When I am Sixty Four” are classic songs. They are absolutely horrible and if you honestly tell me that every single note on their albums after Revolver are good you are lying. The best songs from those three or four albums would make up a nice 32 minute album. The best thing about Sgt Pepper’s is the sleeve. I don’t necessarily hate the period before Rubber Soul, but there were countless other bands who were better in 1964, namely The Animals, The Rolling Stones, The Zombies, The Kinks, and the effing Dave Clark Five who get ZERO respect.

Back to On’ry – I love Uncle Tupelo compared to WIlco or Son Volt. Good call there, son.

Mr. Lonesome:

You are inimitable in your unique ability to make up things. I won’t even get into the ridiculous statement that their best moments after Revolver only make up a “nice 32 minute album.” Rather:

In 1964, the Zombies hadn’t even released a debut album, only three singles. I think all those other bands all released their debuts in 1964. But their successes were’nt that of the Beatles. And we aren’t talking in retrospect, here. We’re talking about then, at that moment.

Time allowed them to record some groundbreaking efforts. Other than that, yes. Mr On’ry summed it up well. Though for the record, I don’t own Let It Be. Hate it.

The Zombies - better than The Beatles?

Mr. On’ry:

I’m not touching this at all because we’ve talked about the freaking Beatles almost as much as we’ve talked about Metallica.  It’s old news.  I’ll sum it up for everyone:

Mr. Mean – hates them and thinks they are the most overrated band ever except for Rubber Soul and Revolver

Mr. Lonesome – loves them and thinks they deserve every ounce of praise they get

Mr. On’ry – really likes them, grew up on them, owns most of their studio albums, but agrees they have some filler and that there were bands throughout their career that were just as good if not better.

There.  Can we be done with them now?!?! (Figures.  I like Let It Be. )

Dude if I had to rank those three bands it would go: Uncle Tupleo, Son Volt, Wilco (distant third).  I catch crap for that but I really don’t care. 

Mr. Mean:

My rankings are your rankings. My favorite Wilco is AM and then, it’s piecemeal for me. I’ll catch crap for that as well.

Mr. On’ry:

Thank you.  That also happens to be my favorite Wilco album as well.  They don’t call them “dad rock” for nothing.  Most of what they write is just boring and soulless.  Not devoid of talent, mind you, but it’s like watching water on a small pond.  You may see a ripple from time to time but really will never see it go anywhere.  You dig?

Mr. Lonesome:

I tried to get into Wilco when they got all their praise with Yankee Hotel Foxtrot. Um. It didn’t work.

This album is 10x better than anything Wilco ever did.  Period.

Mr. Mean:

Hey idiot: “She’s Not There” was released in 1964. No, not an album, but a single that completely blows the living crap out of any Beatles single released that year. I didn’t mention albums…I mentioned bands. Learn to read a bit. And, fine, Odyssey and Oracle is a far better album than anything The Beatles released post-1966. It came out the same year as the White Album. Far better.

Mr. Lonesome:

“Tell Her No” also came out in 1964. “Leave Me Be” was the other one. In case you didn’t read yourself, I said three singles. Dolt. And those three singles didn’t make them better at the time than The Beatles.

And the album is Odessey and Oracle. For all the pains you give us for knowing how to spell albums and bands, you should know that they misspelled the word Odyssey on that record.

And you won’t get any argument from me on it. I think it’s better than the White Album, better than Pet Sounds, better than anything the Stones have ever done.

Did I mention the Zombies are one of my all time favorite bands?

Mr. Mean:

“Tell Her No” came out in ’65.

Yep, I totally misspelled it by spelling the word correctly. Sorry for that. My bad.

Your last statement is stupid beyond words. I am done with this thread. Morons.

Mr. Lonesome:

I could have sworn it was released the end of 1964, a hit in 1965.

Nice attempt at evasive maneuvering. Fail. ß yeah, that’s right. The first time I’ve ever used that term!

Mr. On’ry:

I want to know how moron became plural?  Did I agree with that ridiculous statement?  Have I misspelled a single album, song or band name today?  I am affronted sir.  You two have been slap-fighting each other all day like little girls fighting over your dolly on the playground and I’m the moron? 

And now I’m done with this thread too.

Mr. Mean:

Moron. Ok now I am done. Fin.

Mr. Lonesome:

Metallica!