Morrissey - The Man, The Myth...

Mr. Lonesome:

Morrissey.  I just don’t get the love for this guy. Maybe it’s because I’m not a depressed teenage girl (hey, everyone has a niche!). I just listened to “Why Can’t I Be You” and it further compels my believe that Robert Smith does it right for a Brit-Moper. He can be incredibly dynamic.

And he had better hair.

Mr. On’ry:

We all know my hatred for Morrissey is well documented.  I’ve said it time and time again – The Smiths would be one of my all-time favorite bands if they had a different vocalist.  I don’t recall ever wanting to slap another human being as much as I do that ding-dong. 

Mr. Lonesome:

Even Smiths fans thinks his lyrics to “Meat Is Murder” are absurd. Personally, they want me to not just eat meat, but I don’t even wanna take the time to cook it. I just wanna bite the back of a cow. He doesn’t even have to be dead. And it’s all Morrissey’s fault.

Mr. On’ry:

Well I’m not going to fight with you over your urge to go all Twilight on a cow but you have my support in the anti-Morrissey fan club. 

M. Lonesome:

Yes. Perhaps I was a bit extreme.

Interestingly, “Oscillate Wildly” is a fantastic song. And I don’t generally like instrumentals by bands not named Rush.

Mr. Mean:

You guys are morons. Whether you like Morrissey or not, and yes there are missteps to his lyrics (Meat Is Murder is ghastly indeed), the guy has a great pen. I am shocked that both of you bozos don’t recognize this. Whether you like his voice or not, the guy can write a song. He’s witty, and speaks a lot from his upbringing. Musically, Johnny Marr is a fantastic player. I’m sure you’d love to thumb-pick like he does but your appendages are so far up your backsides that you can’t begin to do it. Back to Morrissey. Yes, he has a unique voice. It’s an acquired taste. You either love it or hate it. But, how is it different from that of a crooner like Bobby Darin? Have you heard Morrissey’s cover of “Moon River”? Probably not. He’s an entertainer, first and foremost. He could sing the Cole Porter songbook and probably make a killing. I have seen him twice, and had a slim chance to see The Smiths when they were still a band. He puts on a great effing show. The Smiths struck a nerve. You don’t have to be a depressed girl or whatever crap you tools wrote. They were perfect for Thatcher’s England because they were political, from a working city, and came about when bands with makeup and electronics (nothing wrong with this) ruled the airwaves. They, along with Orange Juice and Aztec Camera put the guitars back into pop music. These were songs not unlike Link Wray or Hank Marvin or freakin’ The Ventures. They were bands who wrote great indie pop records at a time when excess ruled and wearing a t-shirt and jeans was not cool. They brought back a certain feel, the Warhol/Factory vibe, of art and style and delicacy that was lacking in England, and America, for that matter.

From: “Half A Person”:

And if you have five seconds to spare

Then I'll tell you the story of my life

Sixteen, clumsy and shy

That's the story of my life

Brilliant. Robert Smith never wrote any better. Morons.

And…The Cure? Really? I love them, but they have made several missteps over their career. Wild Mood Swings and Bloodflowers for starters. They are not a consistent band in any way. Their last classic record, start to finish, was The Head On The Door and that was 1985. Singles-wise, they are a brilliant band. But, they have a lot of filler. The Smiths, and Morrissey to an extent, are not littered with filler in my opinion. Their B-sides are fantastic.

There’s a guy I love called Richard Hawley. He played for a band called Longpigs in the Britpop days and joined Pulp on tour a few times. He’s done some amazing records that basically picked up where The Smiths left off as far as I am concerned. You’d be in good company if you sat and had a listen to his stuff. Check out Cole’s Corner sometime, the song and album. Inspired stuff.

Keep listening to Metallica’s later “melodic rubbish” period, Lonesome, and whatever that boring dirge crap was you posted on my Facebook wall last night, On’ry. I’ll gladly keep my Morrissey/Smiths stuff in my collection.

Mr. On’ry:

Tomorrow morning I’m going to pick this back up…and completely annihilate what you just spewed.  Be forewarned.

Mr. Lonesome:

Exactly. We can continue this tomorrow. In time to erase that lobotomy.

(editor’s note:  It was decided to break for the day here because death threats were sent and blood was starting to flow…not really but it would have.)

Mr. Mean:

I await your ill-educated attempts at trying to go against my huge knowledge of English indie rock and post punk music, especially if it came from Manchester. Bozos. You’re walking into flames. Have a go at it. I’ll laugh. Everything I said below is completely true.

Mr. On’ry:

 I would never try to educate you. I'm just going to blow up your logic. 

Mr. Mean:

If you both would actually put your hatred of Morrissey the vocalist away and read some of his lyrics, you would maybe realize that he is a talented writer. Or maybe not. Lonesome started the rubbish by mentioning “Meat Is Murder” lyrics. So yeah, you attacked the writing, not the vocalist so much. I know you both hate his voice. That’s painfully obvious. It’s like the other idiot and his hatred of Lou Reed. So what if you don’t like his voice…recognize the fact that he wrote some damn good songs. Everyone, including Lonesome, always brings up the lyrics to “Meat Is Murder”. Yeah, it’s crap. We know it. Everyone who likes The Smiths knows it. It’s a crock. Have you guys ever listened to the entire Queen Is Dead album start to finish? It’s easy to do because it is a whopping 37 mins in length. It’s genius. I was talking to my wife about it last night and she mentioned that the lyrics that sound “mopey” and were written by a “depressed teenage girl” or whatever the eff you dum-dums said are the ones that he wrote to basically detail the struggle with his sexuality. “Pretty Girls Make Graves” and “Girl Afraid” are very strong in that sense. From the social standpoint (not PETA) you have “Suffer Little Children” and “The Headmaster Ritual”. Very strong songs about some very disgusting subjects. “Barbarism Begins At Home” (one of my all-time top-5 Smiths songs) is pretty much about child abuse. He wasn’t mopey to be mopey. He wrote about his surroundings in Manchester as a kid and as a young adult. The 1970s and 1980s were very disjointed times in England, especially in the North. There was a lot of oppression and tension, and it was the college-age folks who were feeling the pinch. The Smiths came about at the right time for a lot of people. You can hate a band all you want, but centering in on one song, like Lonesome always effing does, shows me you don’t know the catalogue very well or have just decided to ignore it because of one song.

Mr. Lonesome:

I’m keeping this strictly about Morrissey, not The Smiths, or Johnny Marr (who’s best record, in my opinion, is with Modest Mouse), or The Cure, or Thatcher’s England (which would be an awesome band name!).

“Meat Is Murder” was brought up because it is awful in its bombastic over-drama. Not necessarily because he was clumsy with his words. Speaking of clumsy, what makes that four line lyric “brilliant” – without any context, it’s just whatever. Please explain what makes it so. Is it because you were once “sixteen, clumsy and shy?” Is it brilliant because you relate to it specifically?

I take offense to you saying I always focus on one song. If you read it properly, you’ll notice I also mentioned “Oscillate Wildly”  ;o)


We all listen to music for various reasons. And I find it ironic you can bash for us not recognizing his great pen, whereas I love latter-Metallica for a similar reason. I think that era is Hetfield’s strongest vocally and lyrically. All songs have something to offer, and that’s why we love them.

That being said, I completely agree with your comment that Morrissey would be a great crooner. And I think that’s what rubs me. I don’t want to hear Frank Sinatra fronting the Clash, or Michael Buble fronting Def Leppard.

And seriously: there was a time when wearing jeans and a t-shirt wasn’t cool, especially in the music world? Crazy.

Mr. Mean:
1)  Modest Mouse over “Bigmouth Strikes Again”? Dumb. I really cannot wait to hit you in your lady parts.
2) The line “Sixteen, clumsy, and shy” is brilliant. I loved high school, but there were awkward times. If anyone says otherwise they are lying. It’s a song that brings me back to a certain age. I was 16 in 1989, a huge year of my life musically. Also, many bands from Manchester have used the word “sixteen” in brilliant pop songs, namely The Smiths and Buzzcocks. But, I bet you hate them, too.
3) I’m not even going to argue about “Oscillate Wildly”. It’s an instrumental.
4) Did I ever once say that Hetfield’s lyrics in later day Metallica was bad? Name one time I said his lyrics were crap. You can’t. I always maintained that their music of the last 20 years has been weak. I am not a fan of “The Unforgiven” but it does have some great words.
5) On’ry doesn’t want to hear The Clash period. That’s another thread waiting to happen
6) In the 1980s pop music world, yes, it was uncool to wear t-shirts and jeans. The hair bands wore makeup and ripped spandex. The new romantics wore makeup and Armani suits. In 1983, you would be hard-pressed to find a video on MTV that had just a regular bunch of guys playing jangly pop music. Maybe R.E.M. and U2 (another On’ry hatred) but really, not much else.

Mr. Lonesome:

I just adore when you number your points!!!

1. I’m not a Modest Mouse fan. But “We Were Dead Before the Ship Even Sank” is a phenomenal record, and I firmly believe it’s because of the Marr influence. But again, this isnt about Johnny.
2. You still never said why it’s brilliant. Only that you were 16 at some point as well. You want a brilliant, short lyric? Here’s six words that will wreck you, courtesy of Hemingway: “For Sale. Baby Shoes. Never Worn.” That, sir, is brilliant, because it evokes an indelible image by telling a story that forces the reader to ascertain the context. It makes your brain branch off into myriad ways to figure out “how did he die? Who are these parents? How are they coping? Will they try for another? Etc.” Being 16 and clumsy and shy, that’s as common a feeling as a Phil Collins’ love lyrics. Not to undermine how it hits you, specifically. But tossing around “brilliant” is pretty excessive.
3. It’s a GREAT instrumental. Which also makes me wonder: why didn’t he ever try to put down a vocal melody to it.
4.  And that’s the crux of all this. You wont listen to any of those records because you think the songs suck. And that’s a fair, subjective reason. I wont listen to the Smiths, or any solo Morrissey, because I don’t care for his voice. No matter how good his pen is. They are separate things.
5.  On’ry is in for a reckoning.
6. I don’t know. Didn’t Sting wear that attire? I’m sure XTC must have. Also: do you consider The Smiths a pop or rock band?

Mr. Mean:
1)I do think MM are much better with Johnny Marr. That is a true statement for sure.
2) It’s brilliant to me. Anything that evokes innocence and nostalgia 20+ years later and still strikes a chord is brilliant as far as I am concerned. Nice touch with the Hemingway quote. Riveting stuff.
3)  No clue. I do know that Morrissey helped write the music to it.
4) I did listen to those records. I called you out because I can guarantee that you (and the other one) have probably never listened to a Smiths record from start to finish. Well, maybe On’ry has because his wife, who has great taste and a face to go with it, likes them. You started this crap by mentioning the mopey aspects and the lyric to one horrible song. I am saying that it is not all mopey, like you say. You assume it is because that is what you want to believe considering Morrissey’s demeanor or whatever. The effing Smiths are a jangle pop band. They are the Byrds with a crooner. There is nothing, zilch, that is depressing about them, musically or vocally. You want mopey? Go listen to the second, third, and fourth Cure albums. That is depressing and maddening because Robert Smith was taking a lot of drugs at the time.
5) He thinks The Clash are overrated. I disagree, but whatever. “White Man In Hammersmith Palais” and “Rudie Can’t Fail” are genius and he can just shut up.
6)  Sting is irrelevant. Always has been. If you want to fuel some fire on my end, mention your love of The Police. They are singlehandedly the most overrated band in history next to The Eagles. And no, I am not lumping the Beatles in that mix because I can appreciate some of their works. XTC probably wore paisley button downs because they are totally psychedelic.

Mr. Lonesome:

You do realize his nickname is The Pope of Mope, right?

Additionally, I have listened to the Smiths. The girl Mr Lonesome lost his virginity to was a big Smiths fan. Believe me, I tried. She made me.

And we’ll have to duke it out on the Police another day. I think they have some incredibly high points. Stewart Copeland is a genius percussionist, plus he wrote the awesome theme song to The Equalizer!

Mr. Mean:

Lost your virginity? I thought you were eunuch?

The Police. Oh deary dear. The only thing they released that is worth any merit are three songs: their debut 45 “Fallout/Nothing Achieving” and “Can’t Stand Losing You”. That is it. Nothing else. We shall fight some other time though. That said, The Equalizer was a damn fine show. Edward effing Woodward, man!

I think On’ry is writing a novel in which to make his argument known. Or he is crying his tears into an Emmylou Harris record.

Mr. On’ry:

O.k., let’s start with Mr. Mean’s original freak out.  Let’s dispel a myth here: I don’t hate The Smiths.  I would never deny their influence and place in music history (and yes I have listened to multiple albums from start to finish, I’m not such a chode that I would make sweeping comments about an artist without giving them a fair shake first).  The songs themselves (sans vocals) are exceptional.  Hell my album of the day later today on my other blog <plug, plug> is The Boy With The Arab Strap by Belle & Sebastian and they are certainly a band that owes at least a partial debt to The Smiths (and yes I know they are Scottish and not British so don’t have another aneurysm over there).  If  you had taken a break from being a spazz for a moment and actually read what I wrote I went out of my way to distinguish that the one thing I don’t like about The Smiths is Morrissey’s vocals.  Period.  That’s probably why I hate him so much because he basically took a sonic dump on a band that could have been one of my favorites.  You say he’s a great lyricist.  Fantastic.  Then go be a poet and stop trying to sing your “brilliant” lyrics (which by the by I’m with Lonesome again on this.  Stop calling every lyric he writes brilliant because guess what there are hundreds of other artists who wrote lyrics just as good about subjects just as dark.  He’s not the first nor the last to write about his surroundings and find darkness and despair and he won’t be the last.)  Bravo again to Lonesome on the crooner point.  So if Harry Conick Jr. fronted The Pixies you’d be o.k. with that?  I don’t have to apologize for not liking someone’s vocals, just like you don’t have to apologize for hating Layne Staley and Lonesome doesn’t have to apologize for not liking grindcore/death/black metal.  So stuff it.

Secondly you said, “. They were perfect for Thatcher’s England because they were political, from a working city, and came about when bands with makeup and electronics…”  That may be true but they weren’t the soundtrack for Thatcher’s England.  That would be all the great punk rock that emerged from the UK in the 70’s to early/mid-80’s: The Business, Crass, UK Subs, The Exploited, Broken Bones, etc.  I’m ashamed and embarrassed for you that you think Morrissey did more to write about the political and economic strife of that era than these bands.  Why?  Because he wrote about being confused about his sexuality or not wanting to eat meat? (and wore jeans and a t-shirt which according to you was REALLY revolutionary…look out he’s changing the world with that noise!)  You’re kidding me, right?  I know you know better than that.  Morrissey’s historical importance has been greatly overstated time and time again where this is concerned.

The Cure.  Again this is a perfect example of you throwing out superfluous statements that are not grounded in reality.   You’re going to honestly try and tell me that Disintegration (1989) was not a complete album?  Seriously?  I don’t think so. 

I’m not talking about any other bands in this thread.  You want to start a separate thread for The Clash, Modest Mouse, REM, U2, The Police, Metallica,  etc. go for it.  I’m game to prove you wrong again.    

Mr. Lonesome:

I’m going to get my popcorn now. This is getting GOOD.

Mr. Mean:

He wakes up from his tofu-induced sleep!

OK, you hate his vocals. I get it. The other idiot always brings up one damn song and says the lyrics are stupid. Whatever. It’s gets boring.

Dude, I said they were perfect for Thatcher’s England for myriad reasons. I didn’t say they were the first, best, most relevant, or whatever. Punk alienated people. That was the point, somewhat. The Smiths are one of those bands that EVERYONE could like and appreciate. They are one of those bands that crossed genres without really being defined to one genre. Nice dig on the T-shirt and jeans bit. Even I laughed at your verbal slap in my face. I never said it was revolutionary, but it was an important shift at the time. The damned 80s are remembered for excess. They were a working class band who got noticed by writing great songs and just looking like normal people. They did not have to wear makeup to get noticed. The bit about their clothing was because the music, for once, started to talk and not what the video had in it. At the time, yes, it was damned important. It paved the way for other bands to follow suit over there, just the same as R.E.M. and The Replacements did over on this side of the pond. Those bands were very important for a lot of reasons, and that importance, style, back catalogue, and musicianship is why they have such rabid followings even to this day.

And yes, Disintegration has some filler. The Cure’s problem, starting in ’87 with Kiss Me Kiss Me Kiss Me, is that they started making longer albums because the cd format allowed them to do so and they all had filler. The Head On The Door is the last album they did where every song is great, as far as I am concerned. The following albums are good, but not classic. Sorry. And, for the record, Disintegration is one of the muddiest, most horribly produced albums ever. Up there with Sabbath’s Born Again, which I know you love so much.

I can’t be bothered with this anymore. You guys like Layne Staley and I like Morrissey. By the way, there is no comparison. Morrissey wins that battle hands down.

(editor’s note:  It was agreed at this point to simply “agree to disagree” forever and ever on Morrissey and a separate argument broke out over Alice In Chains…stay tuned!)